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	<title>Comments for Joules for Fools</title>
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	<link>http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>Our energy systems blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 22:33:12 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;There&#8217;s no such thing as Clean Coal&#8221;  &#8211; A Liberal&#8217;s take on Liberal Stupidity by Lothar</title>
		<link>http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/theres-no-such-thing-as-clean-coal-a-liberals-take-on-liberal-stupidity/#comment-114</link>
		<dc:creator>Lothar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 22:33:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/?p=68#comment-114</guid>
		<description>Yes - Carbon can be absorbed many ways - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_sequestration

Also - growth is good and Carbon based energy does not have to be the driver in the future. Think Water, wind, solar and Nuclear. Its hard to fly a plane on renewable energy  so in the short term (my lifetime) carbon based fuels will not go away and probably not decline by more than a percentage point - so get busy and develop alternatives!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes &#8211; Carbon can be absorbed many ways &#8211; see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_sequestration" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_sequestration</a></p>
<p>Also &#8211; growth is good and Carbon based energy does not have to be the driver in the future. Think Water, wind, solar and Nuclear. Its hard to fly a plane on renewable energy  so in the short term (my lifetime) carbon based fuels will not go away and probably not decline by more than a percentage point &#8211; so get busy and develop alternatives!</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;There&#8217;s no such thing as Clean Coal&#8221;  &#8211; A Liberal&#8217;s take on Liberal Stupidity by Bill Strouss</title>
		<link>http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/theres-no-such-thing-as-clean-coal-a-liberals-take-on-liberal-stupidity/#comment-113</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Strouss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 22:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/?p=68#comment-113</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that rely. 

So if I understand it correctly it really is a question of prospective sustainability. If we grow wood to burn, cut it down, burn it and replant the land it is carbon neutral. If we deforest Brazil and by definition do not replant we have lost the prospective carbon absorption.

In your considered opinion then how can we reach carbon neutrality when it is the human condition to grow and consume. Won&#039;t we have to have a fundamental paradigm shift in how we, as a civilization, view growth. We have always considered growth to be &quot;good&quot;. But from a carbon footprint standpoint it is not.

One last question, is the environment capable or reabsorbing carbon other than thru photosynthesis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that rely. </p>
<p>So if I understand it correctly it really is a question of prospective sustainability. If we grow wood to burn, cut it down, burn it and replant the land it is carbon neutral. If we deforest Brazil and by definition do not replant we have lost the prospective carbon absorption.</p>
<p>In your considered opinion then how can we reach carbon neutrality when it is the human condition to grow and consume. Won&#8217;t we have to have a fundamental paradigm shift in how we, as a civilization, view growth. We have always considered growth to be &#8220;good&#8221;. But from a carbon footprint standpoint it is not.</p>
<p>One last question, is the environment capable or reabsorbing carbon other than thru photosynthesis?</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;There&#8217;s no such thing as Clean Coal&#8221;  &#8211; A Liberal&#8217;s take on Liberal Stupidity by jkace</title>
		<link>http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/theres-no-such-thing-as-clean-coal-a-liberals-take-on-liberal-stupidity/#comment-112</link>
		<dc:creator>jkace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 00:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/?p=68#comment-112</guid>
		<description>This is absolutely NOT a stupid question.  The short answer is yes, burning wood, if you burn it all and you burn it all well, is carbon neutral. 

So, why is deforestation such a big source of GHG&#039;s? 

Your intuition is correct. From a GHG perspective, trees and plants store and release carbon, nothing more.  The trick is in &lt;em&gt;how&lt;/em&gt; the trees are grown in the first place.  Deforestation refers specifically to an unsustainable practice of felling trees and either using or burning them.   The land is then often left barren, or turned into human settlement.  Since the trees don&#039;t grow back, there is a net release of carbon into the atmosphere.

Well didn&#039;t those trees suck in the CO2 to begin with?

Yes, they did, but on a much different timescale and scope.  The earth has spent millions of years storing carbon in the form of vast, dense forests that humans are able to cut down within a few hundred years.  The only reason the US can claim carbon neutrality with wood biomass is that wood production within the US is relatively sustainable (This isn&#039;t because we&#039;re progressive, we deforested our country centuries ago), and we rarely import wood just to burn it.

Another way to look at it is to compare it to oil reserves.  Oil reserves are the product of millions of years of organic decay and compression, and hence a large carbon sink, like a forest.  Burning that oil releases all of those millions of years of carbon sinking effort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is absolutely NOT a stupid question.  The short answer is yes, burning wood, if you burn it all and you burn it all well, is carbon neutral. </p>
<p>So, why is deforestation such a big source of GHG&#8217;s? </p>
<p>Your intuition is correct. From a GHG perspective, trees and plants store and release carbon, nothing more.  The trick is in <em>how</em> the trees are grown in the first place.  Deforestation refers specifically to an unsustainable practice of felling trees and either using or burning them.   The land is then often left barren, or turned into human settlement.  Since the trees don&#8217;t grow back, there is a net release of carbon into the atmosphere.</p>
<p>Well didn&#8217;t those trees suck in the CO2 to begin with?</p>
<p>Yes, they did, but on a much different timescale and scope.  The earth has spent millions of years storing carbon in the form of vast, dense forests that humans are able to cut down within a few hundred years.  The only reason the US can claim carbon neutrality with wood biomass is that wood production within the US is relatively sustainable (This isn&#8217;t because we&#8217;re progressive, we deforested our country centuries ago), and we rarely import wood just to burn it.</p>
<p>Another way to look at it is to compare it to oil reserves.  Oil reserves are the product of millions of years of organic decay and compression, and hence a large carbon sink, like a forest.  Burning that oil releases all of those millions of years of carbon sinking effort.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;There&#8217;s no such thing as Clean Coal&#8221;  &#8211; A Liberal&#8217;s take on Liberal Stupidity by Bill Strouss</title>
		<link>http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/theres-no-such-thing-as-clean-coal-a-liberals-take-on-liberal-stupidity/#comment-111</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Strouss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:42:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/?p=68#comment-111</guid>
		<description>I have a question. Please forgive me if it is a stupid one. I have been tld by some engineering folks who are more technically savvy than me that Biomass is carbon neutral since it absorbed carbon while growing and now releases it when it is burned or decays. Why then is deforestation cited as a major source of carbon? Whether we burn wood chips in a powerplant or burn felled trees in Brazil, isn&#039;t the carbon calculus the same?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a question. Please forgive me if it is a stupid one. I have been tld by some engineering folks who are more technically savvy than me that Biomass is carbon neutral since it absorbed carbon while growing and now releases it when it is burned or decays. Why then is deforestation cited as a major source of carbon? Whether we burn wood chips in a powerplant or burn felled trees in Brazil, isn&#8217;t the carbon calculus the same?</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;There&#8217;s no such thing as Clean Coal&#8221;  &#8211; A Liberal&#8217;s take on Liberal Stupidity by jkace</title>
		<link>http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/theres-no-such-thing-as-clean-coal-a-liberals-take-on-liberal-stupidity/#comment-110</link>
		<dc:creator>jkace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/?p=68#comment-110</guid>
		<description>Coal gasification is the process of breaking down the complex hydrocarbons in coal to simple components, namely Hydrogen gas and Carbon Monoxide.  This gaseous stream of H2 and CO is called &#039;syngas&#039;, and can be burnt much like natural gas.  

The problem with coal gasification is that at the end of the process, you release just as much CO2 as you would burning the coal.  The fact of the matter is that CO2 is the lowest energy state of carbon, so any sort of fossil fuel combustion will eventually lead to a CO2 stream.

That being said, gasification effectively lowers all other emissions associated with power generation (SOx, NOx, particulates), and provides the most economically feasible method for CO2 capture.  We still, however, need to figure out what to do with all that darn CO2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Coal gasification is the process of breaking down the complex hydrocarbons in coal to simple components, namely Hydrogen gas and Carbon Monoxide.  This gaseous stream of H2 and CO is called &#8217;syngas&#8217;, and can be burnt much like natural gas.  </p>
<p>The problem with coal gasification is that at the end of the process, you release just as much CO2 as you would burning the coal.  The fact of the matter is that CO2 is the lowest energy state of carbon, so any sort of fossil fuel combustion will eventually lead to a CO2 stream.</p>
<p>That being said, gasification effectively lowers all other emissions associated with power generation (SOx, NOx, particulates), and provides the most economically feasible method for CO2 capture.  We still, however, need to figure out what to do with all that darn CO2.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;There&#8217;s no such thing as Clean Coal&#8221;  &#8211; A Liberal&#8217;s take on Liberal Stupidity by Lothar</title>
		<link>http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/theres-no-such-thing-as-clean-coal-a-liberals-take-on-liberal-stupidity/#comment-109</link>
		<dc:creator>Lothar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/?p=68#comment-109</guid>
		<description>How does Coal gassification fit into this picture? Is this a cleaner way to use coal? Why is there so little discussion about it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does Coal gassification fit into this picture? Is this a cleaner way to use coal? Why is there so little discussion about it?</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;There&#8217;s no such thing as Clean Coal&#8221;  &#8211; A Liberal&#8217;s take on Liberal Stupidity by jkace</title>
		<link>http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/theres-no-such-thing-as-clean-coal-a-liberals-take-on-liberal-stupidity/#comment-108</link>
		<dc:creator>jkace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/?p=68#comment-108</guid>
		<description>This is a very fair point.  One should always look at the lifecycle of a fuel, from extraction to enduse, before coming to a conclusion about its environmental impact.  This includes looking at the lifecycle of natural gas, which happens to feature some not-so-great &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.catskillmountainkeeper.org/node/989&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;stories&lt;/a&gt; of water contamination.  CFL bulbs still contain mercury.  Nothing is perfect.  I&#039;m not saying coal is more eco-friendly than natural gas or using CFL bulbs, that&#039;s simply not true.  I&#039;m simply stating that the energy problem is real, and no solution should be overlooked.

-josh</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very fair point.  One should always look at the lifecycle of a fuel, from extraction to enduse, before coming to a conclusion about its environmental impact.  This includes looking at the lifecycle of natural gas, which happens to feature some not-so-great <a href="http://www.catskillmountainkeeper.org/node/989" rel="nofollow">stories</a> of water contamination.  CFL bulbs still contain mercury.  Nothing is perfect.  I&#8217;m not saying coal is more eco-friendly than natural gas or using CFL bulbs, that&#8217;s simply not true.  I&#8217;m simply stating that the energy problem is real, and no solution should be overlooked.</p>
<p>-josh</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;There&#8217;s no such thing as Clean Coal&#8221;  &#8211; A Liberal&#8217;s take on Liberal Stupidity by plutes</title>
		<link>http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/theres-no-such-thing-as-clean-coal-a-liberals-take-on-liberal-stupidity/#comment-107</link>
		<dc:creator>plutes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:46:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/?p=68#comment-107</guid>
		<description>I agree that energy independence is important enough to warrant considering all options.  We may need to use coal as an interim solution until cleaner options are fully scaled. 

However, carbon emissions are not the only environmental impact of coal energy.  What about mountain top removal, groundwater contamination, mercury emissions, and fly ash disposal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that energy independence is important enough to warrant considering all options.  We may need to use coal as an interim solution until cleaner options are fully scaled. </p>
<p>However, carbon emissions are not the only environmental impact of coal energy.  What about mountain top removal, groundwater contamination, mercury emissions, and fly ash disposal?</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;There&#8217;s no such thing as Clean Coal&#8221;  &#8211; A Liberal&#8217;s take on Liberal Stupidity by prakashrao1</title>
		<link>http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/theres-no-such-thing-as-clean-coal-a-liberals-take-on-liberal-stupidity/#comment-103</link>
		<dc:creator>prakashrao1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 17:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/?p=68#comment-103</guid>
		<description>A little off topic, but I was reading something about Freeman Dyson, an acclaimed Physicist among many other things, and he pointed out that the electricity produced by coal is cheaper for the consumer than electricity produced by renewables, natural gas, nuclear, etc. So in underdeveloped countries with staggering poverty rates, coal based electricity makes sense as it facilitates industrial development and helps the poor climb out of their circumstance. Not too mention, if electricity were expensive, people would probably shut off lights and start burning much more environmentally harmful things like wood, oil, etc in its place. 

As far as coal use in the US, we have so much that is not in our best interest from a security or economic standpoint to turn away from it.

Good ranting JKace!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A little off topic, but I was reading something about Freeman Dyson, an acclaimed Physicist among many other things, and he pointed out that the electricity produced by coal is cheaper for the consumer than electricity produced by renewables, natural gas, nuclear, etc. So in underdeveloped countries with staggering poverty rates, coal based electricity makes sense as it facilitates industrial development and helps the poor climb out of their circumstance. Not too mention, if electricity were expensive, people would probably shut off lights and start burning much more environmentally harmful things like wood, oil, etc in its place. </p>
<p>As far as coal use in the US, we have so much that is not in our best interest from a security or economic standpoint to turn away from it.</p>
<p>Good ranting JKace!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alternative to load shedding? by sandrar</title>
		<link>http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/alternative-to-load-shedding/#comment-102</link>
		<dc:creator>sandrar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joulesforfools.wordpress.com/?p=28#comment-102</guid>
		<description>Hi! I was surfing and found your blog post... nice! I love your blog.  :) Cheers! Sandra. R.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi! I was surfing and found your blog post&#8230; nice! I love your blog.  <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Cheers! Sandra. R.</p>
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